Metropolitan Community Church
August 14th, 2004Website: http://www.mccsd.org
Church Review
Scriptural View: 1/5
Beliefs: 1/5
Community: 3/5
Website Review
Site Usabilility: 4/5
Site Design: 3/5
Site Content: 3/5
Summary: The MCC is an open and affirming Christian community. From their site: “This means that we embrace people of any race, ethnic identity, nationality, gender, sexual orientation, age, economic status or life situation to be a contribution to this ministry. We are about bringing people into a vibrant, life-changing relationship (as opposed to religion) that following Christ was originally intended to be.” The first MCC was established by Rev. Troy Perry in Los Angeles in 1968, as a particular ministry to the Gay Lesbian Bi-Sexual and Transgender(GBLT) community.
The goal of this church is changing attitudes in the GLBT community toward Christ, and the Christian commmunity toward GLBT people. I agree with this but not in the way MCC intends. It is true that often Christians attacked the GLBT community and are more concerned with specific sin that they forget that Christ conquered sin, all sin. This means that homosexuality is NOT the focus in sharing the gospel with gays. The focus is all are sinners and have fallen short of God’s perfect and eternal laws. (see Romans 3) But clearly MCC has a socio-political agenda that is built on accepting all lifestyles, which is clearly not something that the Bible tells us. Yes we are to LOVE all people, but all of us need to come to the cross and seek forgiveness and leave our lives of sin.
I would not recommend this church as indicated by a poor position on Scripture.
September 29th, 2004 at 12:53 pm
Hi,
I attend MCCSD on a weekly basis and have found it to be a safe worship space that has fed my soul and my walk with Jesus Christ. Before I went to MCCSD I was not a Christian partly because of the bible thumping viewpoint most Modern Day Christians have abused homosexuals with. I am also a Native American and come from a family that was culturally abused by Christian Missionaries and I find it extremely harmful that you would post such an awful review of MCCSD. MCCSD has saved me and reminded me that God loves me too.
I understand and even accept that your viewpoint is one of condemnation of homosexuals. What I don’t accept or understand is why you would allow your own homophobia to influence your ability to review a church in a non-judgemental way. I find that very offensive. Have you visited MCCSD? From your review, it sounds like you’ve only been to the website.
I just wanted to remind you that only God has the right to judge. And when I read the Bible, the message of love Jesus was sharing seemed more about forgiveness and UNCONDITIONAL LOVE not JUDGEMENT. As Christians we strive to be Christ-like but none of us will ever reach that perfection because there is only one Jesus. God knew that humans did not have the capacity for perfection so God sent Jesus to have mercy on mankind and to bridge that gap.
Please don’t spout your biased opinion and hurt more people. Every Christian church out there has squabbled over scripture and the validity of some spiritual gifts like exorcism and speaking in tongues. That’s what makes being a Christian so interesting and thought provoking. But guess what, Jesus died for everyone’s sins, not just heterosexual sins.
It’s not up to Modern Day Christians to pick and choose who is to count and who’s right or wrong about homosexuality. As for the social and political message you think MCCSD is sharing, the only message that stands out to me, “Is to love your neighbor as you would love yourself.” I don’t feel this coming across from you as a Christian brother of mine when I read your review of MCCSD.
So please all I ask is for you to take a look at your review, pray, and re-review MCCSD after you have visited. If then you still feel MCCSD is lacking, please let me know why so that maybe if there is more validity to your claims then just homophobia, I can take it up with the MCCSD staff so that someone like yourself, a God-fearing heterosexual man, would see that all people deserve a safe non-judgemental space to worship the One True God. Thank you.
September 30th, 2004 at 3:37 pm
Yolanda,
Thank you for your thoughtful comment. I appreciate you taking the time to share your thoughts on this review.
I would encourage you to re-consider your thoughts about Jesus bringing a message of UNCONDITIONAL LOVE. Are these ideas coming from the Bible or from what you feel? Because the concept of unconditional love permeates society and because it is often thought of as the highest form of human love, it is natural for a Christian to mistakenly use this term to describe God. After all, His love is far greater than any human love imaginable. God’s love for humanity is so great that “He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life” (John 3:16). Oh, the magnitude of the cost! We cannot even fathom His love even though our very breath depends upon it! His love indeed reaches to the heights and depths. But again, is God’s love truly unconditional?
God’s love is available to human beings by grace alone. There is nothing that men can do to earn that love. There is no good work that is either demanded or even possible. But does that make God’s love unconditional? “That whosoever will” is most certainly not a work, but it is a condition. Otherwise we would end up with universalism (all people saved) rather than salvation by grace received through faith.
God chooses upon whom He will place His love and the benefits of His love. Did Jesus ever imply that God’s love is unconditional? He said to His disciples:
“He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth Me: and he that loveth Me shall be loved of My Father, and I will love him, and will manifest Myself to him” (John 14:21).
But perhaps one could say that God’s love for the Christian is unconditional since the Christian partakes of His love and grace through faith. Wouldn’t it be better to say that the conditions have been met? Jesus met the first condition, to wash away the sin that God hates. The believer meets the second condition, but only by God’s grace through faith.
Further, I agree with you that we should not act as the ultimate ‘judge’ over people but as believers we are called to make certain ‘judgements’. We make judgements about who would do the best job as leaders, we make judgements about which church we attend and we should also make judgements on whether a church is teaching the Bible as truth. I could even argue that you made judgements against me. For example, you have judged me as a homophobic person. I am not homophobic, I am a follower of Christ. I believe what I have written is an accurate assesment of the MCC. Should you then not judge my comments?
Here are some other views from Jesus on judging:
“Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.” (John 7:24).
From John:
“Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.” (I John 4:1)
Other passages:
“Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual,
restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.” (Gal 6:1)
“The way of peace they know not; and there is no judgment in their goings: they have made them crooked paths: whosoever goeth therein shall not know peace.” - Isaiah 59:8
“The mouth of the righteous speaketh wisdom, and his tongue talketh of judgment.” - Psalm 37:30
I can go on and on about how, when, why and under what circumstance we ARE told to judge/discern truth from error. Suffice to say, as believers we are called to make judgements but we cannot JUDGE who will go to heaven or hell and our judgements are not our own but God’s who has given them to us in His Word.
I hope this helps…
October 6th, 2004 at 3:54 pm
I too, attend, and am involved with ministry at MCC San Diego. I appreciate your comments, SiteAdmin, but am concerned with your statements and with your review of this church. While I certainly feel each person is entitled to their own opinions and statements, your statements do not seem to be corroborated well by your evidence – this is my opinion. Also, I think that your statements and scores may need to be re-evaluated.
First, I would like to note that God does love all people – and this is an unconditional love. You noted John 3:16, but cut off the first part ”For God so loved the world, that He gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” (KJV). This does not say “for God loved heterosexuals” or “for God loved those who loved Him.” It says “for God so loved the WORLD.” In fact, in Matthew 5:46,48, we are told “For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? Do not even the publicans the same? Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” (KJV) This notes that we are to be like God – loving even when we are not loved…like God loves the world.
I think you stated it best when you noted “God’s love is available to human beings by grace alone. There is nothing that men can do to earn that love. There is no good work that is either demanded or even possible.” While there are things God asks/requests/demands from us, these do not alter the love God has. For we are all sinners (Romans 3:23) and undeserving, but through the gift of God’s son, Jesus, we are given Grace.
Also…
In looking at your notes on the ranking system, you almost entirely rank it on the Word of God. While I agree this is very important – I think it’s also important that what we do with the Word is important, as well. It seems, to me, that your main (if not only) reason for giving us a score of 1 is because our church does not condemn homosexuality. I understand that it is your belief that homosexuality is wrong, and, while I disagree, I am not here to argue that point. It has been my experience, however limited, that most every church has at least a verse or two that they disagree with another church about – otherwise there wouldn’t be so many different churches with so many different beliefs. So, while we may disagree about the implications of these few verses, I think if you listened to people – including our pastor – talk about the other 30,000+ other verses, I’m sure you would find that we ‘hold scripture as true and preach from God’s Word so that we may provide the counsel of God’s Word and application it to believers’ lives.’
I would like you to consider what score we may truly deserve – based on our church as a whole, not on one belief. For example, we have many small groups – some designed to help people grow closer to God and to one another through Bible Study and discussion, some reach out to help the community and beyond. We are a welcoming community of believers – from the ushers waiting to greet to members of our church who gladly walk over, introducing themselves to new attendees. We are steadfast in prayer, and strive to follow both the “Great Commission” and the “Great Commandment.” We reach out to the community we minister to as well as the community in general and beyond to tell of God’s great love for each of us so that people may begin to look to God instead of away, that people who once gave up on God because of what other Christians taught will once again look to God and seek after His will for them. We strive love our neighbors, our brothers, our sisters, our community, as we would want to be loved – as God loves us – unconditionally.
I have never met someone to enter our church and not recognize the presence of God within that place and/or within the people there. This causes me to wonder if you have actually attended one of our services after praying to God and being in a spiritual space of a heart of worship. If you have not, I would like to invite you. And, I will keep your experience in prayer, as well – that God would help you to have the heart and mind, and be in connection with God, to grow during any service you may attend and to provide you with the insight as to what God would want you leave with. And, if you choose not to attend, I pray that you will not base your decisions/judgements purely on what you perceive to be the case and that you would grow through this ministry. I believe the idea of this site is beneficial, but I think there are several things that need to be considered and worked on.
May we always remember “Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.” Matthew 22:37-40 (KJV)
I love God and I believe in Jesus Christ. I am a follower of Jesus Christ and have been saved through the grace He gave through His death and Resurrection. I yearn and strive and try my might to be Christ-like. I am loved by God, sanctified by God, and follow God. This is the most important thing in my life, in the world, in everything – God is my everything…words cannot describe. I love God as much as my very being can and, alike, I love my neighbor, my sister, and my brother. I am not perfect. I am a Christian. And…I just so happen to be a lesbian.
October 7th, 2004 at 11:03 am
Carol,
Yes as believers we are called to love everyone as God has called us to. I also agree God does love the world as you quoted in John 3:16. This word “world” in the Greek is “cosmos”. There are different uses for the word “world” in the New Testament. Here are some different ways this word is used: (from BlueLetterBible)
1) an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government
2) ornament, decoration, adornment, i.e. the arrangement of the stars,
‘the heavenly hosts’, as the ornament of the heavens. 1 Pet. 3:3
3) the world, the universe
4) the circle of the earth, the earth
5) the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family
6) the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ
7) world affairs, the aggregate of things earthly
a) the whole circle of earthly goods, endowments riches, advantages, pleasures, etc, which although hollow and frail and fleeting, stir desire, seduce from God and are obstacles to the cause of Christ
8) any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort
a) the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (Rom. 11:12 etc)
b) of believers only, John 1:29; 3:16; 3:17; 6:33; 12:47 1 Cor. 4:9; 2 Cor. 5:19
Who is Jesus talking to in John 3:16? He is talking to a a Pharisee named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. The Jews up to this point were ‘God’s chosen people’ and what Jesus was telling Nicodemus was radical. God loves the entire world, all nations not just the Jews and through Jesus God was now pursuing those who will believe and in His love give them reconciliation and peace with God through the work of Jesus Christ.
While God does love the whole world, I would say this is not God unconditionally loving all people everywhere who have ever existed. Do you believe people are going to hell as Scripture says? If so, is this part of God’s unconditional love? I have a hard time believing that God would unconditionally love those who are in eternal seperation and judgement from Him.
“It seems, to me, that your main (if not only) reason for giving us a score of 1 is because our church does not condemn homosexuality.”
This is not true. The reason I gave you a low score was because of how Scripture is approached. I do the same with universalists (First Unitarian Universalist Church of San Diego), legalists (San Diego Church of Christ) and churches that distort scripture (Mission Valley Christian Fellowship).
“It has been my experience, however limited, that most every church has at least a verse or two that they disagree with another church about – otherwise there wouldn’t be so many different churches with so many different beliefs.”
This is true, but a distinction is whether the disagreement is over areas that are principles or methods. For example, if two churches disagree with whether to immerse or sprinkle water during baptism this is quiet different from a church who believes Jesus was a good man and another one that He is the Son of God and part of the trinity.
I hope this helps clear up any misconceptions on my comments and why we’ve decided to rank MCC the way we have. I appreciate your taking the time to discuss this with me and I thank you for the kindness in how you’ve approached these subjects. While we may disagree I still want to treat you with love.
God Bless…
October 8th, 2004 at 9:23 am
Hi,
This is such stimulating and thought provoking discussion! How awesome is it that we can dialogue with one another on such profound spiritual issues.
I just wanted to jump in with a quick note about the unconditional love issue. We must recognize that God is a God of love, grace, justice and truth. It seems that it would be a “flaw” in His character if He wasn’t unconditionally loving. I truely beleive He loves all people including mass murderer, rapists, etc. Obviously, God detests sin, but continues to love us for who He is, not who we are or what we do.
However, God is also completely just. He is the standard of right and wrong and never deviates from it - God’s “righteousness”. God requires his law to be obeyed, and He enforces it equally - God’s “justice”.
A holy, just, and righteous God cannot dismiss sin any more than an honest judge can ignore crime. Such a violation of justice would disqualify the judge from the bench. Likewise, God’s holliness must address sin, or He’s no longer holy. By pouring out his “wrath” on Christ, God satisfies His justice and preserves His character.
God honored His justice through Christ. Yet, He doesn’t force us to go to heaven, just like he doesnt force anyone to hell. He provides us, during our lifetime, with the option to either recieve his gift of grace… or not.
With this said, i don’t believe that God doesn’t stop loving those who reject Him. God pursues us until the moment our earthly bodies die. Then, to those who never recieved Christ, He will give them their wish - eternal seperation from Him.
Let’s be humble stewards of God’s Word. Peace
December 28th, 2004 at 11:09 pm
As a former homosexual, who repented of that life and that terrible sin, I can emphatically state that I am now truly liberated. For thirty years, I was involved in the gay life and attended some services at MCC and what they preach is a total lie. Their doctrine is not based on solid theological scholarship or even remotely correct Biblical interpretation. Their teachings are designed for one purpose. Not to lead the the sinner into repentence from sin, but to manipulate them into accepting their sin of homosexuality as a natural creative trait from God. The Bible warns us not to be deceived by wolves who masquerade in sheep’s clothing, as is the case of Troy Perry and his prophets of Baal who are teaching and preaching at MCC “churches”.
Love never requires us to compromise God’s Word and one who calls themselve a Christian would never ask another lost soul to particpate in behavior that is destructive to the body, the soul and the spirit.
The MCC in San Diego has played host to graphic gay sex events being presented by the S & M Community and everything about this church is blackness and evil.
MCC also adhered to a very perverted doctrine of teaching that homosexuality is a gift from God and that Jesus was in fact, gay and that He had sexual relations with some of the apostles.
They also teach that David had a sexual affair with Jonathan.
These vile teachings should be publicly repudiated by every Christian in every Church in America.
I am living proof that one can leave the sin of homosexuality and never look back. My life proves that the teachings of MCC are a sham and damnable heresy.
James
March 31st, 2005 at 10:42 am
What a crock of monkey poop.
You state that the mission of this church is socio-political. Look into your own motive for the negative review and tell me that it is not political in nature.
Your attitude toward homosexuals as sinners is contemptuous at best.
The Christian church is full of individuals who display pride, greed, envy, gluttony, lust, sloth and all other items that the church should people of ridding in order to achieve a more fulfilling life. I am making the assumption that you do not consider yourself a homosexual. Regardless, your intentional misrepresentation of the MCC mission is reprehensible.
I would encourage you to ask God forgiveness for your arrogance.
August 22nd, 2005 at 12:34 pm
To follow God is to follow all of his requirements. Chief among those requirements is to repent. According to Merriam-Webster’s dictionary, repent is defined as “1 : to turn from sin and dedicate oneself to the amendment of one’s life
2 a : to feel regret or contrition b : to change one’s mind.”
From Leviticus 18:22 KJV, “Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination,” is clear that this was a the last in a littany of commands from God for Moses to give to the people of Israel. The prior had to do with incest and adultary. All of the listed sexual acts were an abomination including homosexuality. Abomination is defined as: extreme disgust and hatred.
Now with the birth, death, and resurrection of Jesus the commandments as well as blessing of God extended past Israel to the Gentiles.
Then to follow logically, homosexuality is as sin plain and simple. Then Jesus says in, Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
So for those who claim to be gay and lesbian Christians they are at odds with God on this well defined sin.
To continue willingly in a known sin and ignore the conviction of that sin by the Holy Spirit makes us like the Pharasies that Jesus condemed through out his ministry. He loved them as he preached to them. Yet they did not listen.
Further Jesus says in Joh 8:43-44 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot, hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
It was once told to me by a minister that, Satan gains a foot hold on us by burying an ounce of lie in a ton of truth. Also Satan knows the words of God probably better than all of us combined. He is also the master deceiver. He twist the words of the Bible, hides some and promotes others that we might stumble and then stands before God and says see. We know this from the story of Job.
Then in Joh 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have, no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth. In other words unlike our secular society that claims ignorance of the law is no excuse, Jesus says, that it is not sin if you don’t know but once you have opened your eyes then it is sin.
Lastly we have Jesus’ words in Mat 5:27-28 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. Sin does not originate in the action it originates in the heart. The heart and the mind are inseparable, if it is in the heart it is in the mind. To call oneself a Christian and then also call oneself a Gay or Lesbian is the epitomy of hypocracy.
Now Jesus at the time of his trial was accused of fellowship with tax collectors, adulterers, paupers, heathens, etc. He did not deny it. It was they that needed redemption. The chief priest of the day also were in his sights but they resisted openly because their cares were of this world and the political struggle with Rome. A very nice job of deception and confusion by the prince of the air, Satan held them in check from receiving the glorious gift of salvation. As it was then it is now. Churches should do all that they can to bring people to the Word of God. But before they can do that they must have people come to repentance of their own accord. No one can make you repent except yourself. Through the preachers and ministers and prophets God convicts us. They are not the judge as the unrepentant like to claim they are. They are just the instruments of God and his will that all be saved.
Yet if you say you repent but continue in sin then it is a lie. Even John the Baptist preached repentance. Likewise Jesus told the apostles in Luk 9:5 And whosoever, will not receive you, when ye go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet for a testimony against them. These men of God did judge to the extent they were told to do so by Jesus himself. It was not their judgement of anyone but God’s judgement and their testimony.
If you are asked who you are then what would you say? I am a man, a scientist, a mother, a father, a gay or a lesbian. These are not who you are but attributes of the physical being while on this earth. Who you are comes from where your came from even in your mother’s womb. You were not a man or woman then, nor scientist, nor politician nor gay nor lesbian. Those came later. Who you are is an eternal truth about you that existed before you stepped foot on this earth and will remain long after you are gone. You are as I am, a beloved child of God.
To lay claim to attributes of this physical world as your identity will mislead you. To claim being gay or lesbian, says that you cannot repent of a clearly defined sin. The same goes for alcholics, adulterers, liars, and all other habitual sins. These are but problems that you face for whatever reason. They are also the very tools with which, if you will allow the Holy Spirit to work in you, you will overcome and move closer to God and understand his ways.
Peter denied Jesus 3 times as it was foretold to him. Paul persecuted and executed Christians yet the New Testatment is filled with their teachings. When I asked why I was told because the repented of their sins. When a mere man points out to you a sin you have committed, it is not he who judges you but God through him. Attacking the messenger and holding fast to your sin is not Godly.
Finally as Jesus spoke through the apostle John on the isle of Patmos: Rev 3:15-16 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew thee out of my mouth. If you are a self avowed child of God then doing all that he commands including repenting of sin, that is to let go of it and do it no more, confessing it for forgiveness, then you fall in the hot category. Likewise if you outright deny God and sin to your hearts content you fall in the cold category. But to be claiming the gift of salvation yet willfully continuing in sin is to make you luke warm. How do I know this because I was luke warm, I was also convicted of it by the Holy Spirit and the lesson well learned by me. These are not the days in which you may freely waffle on the fence. You must, as Jesus shows above, jump off that fence and plant your feet on one side or the other. I only pray that it is on the side of an eternity in heaven. The other two options will condem you to an eternity in hell. The choice is yours and yours alone. Fortunately you have up until the moment you take your last breath. Pray that God doesn’t allow that to happen so quickly that you fail to make the choice for heaven before you leave this world.
May the PEACE of God rest with you all.